Israel-Gaza

[Oberschutze]

thats not an argument, thats a fact. just like everything else ive said. but the problem with america is that, like i said, most of the original native population has been assimilated into the modern american population. to most native americans or people who are half native or a quarter and soforth, retaking the land that was theirs, that their ancestors had live on for thousands of years, just isnt relevant anymore. thats what the israelis are trying to do to the palestinians now. they are providing the palestinians with horrible living conditions, for example little running water, electricity, tearing down palestinian homes and building israeli settlements to replace them, and enforcing travel restrictions on palestinians that make it painstakingly difficult for palestinians to go much of anywhere, including hospitals and to their jobs. its all part of an israeli campaign to assimilate the palestinian population, or to make them leave. the israelis' biggest problem right now is the palestinian diaspora, which includes myself, and the palestinian "right to return" which basically says that any palestinian, even second or third generation palestinians, hold an unalienable right to return to the land that they were forced out of in 1948. the israeli government wont let a palestinian back in to palestine to live, or in most cases even visit, if he/she has immigrated somewhere safer.

@ metsa

go read a history book. the etruscans had conquered rome when rome was at its beginnings. btw, part of the entire israeli objective was to kill civilians as many idf soldiers have even stated.

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=480281

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPKXnlulEH0

and how about using a smaller bomb. or perhaps going after him at a time when he isnt in a damn apartment building where a lot of people live.

and by the way, i dont give a shit what you say about "liberal hippie media", i lived there and ive seen this happen. my experience is media enough.

[D.O.A]

Israeli would not be there without the USA... nuf said lol

[metsapeikko]

So you're basically saying that the target should be destroyed when he's in market or on the street with literally dozens of people around him in extremely close proximity?

And if it actually was IDF's strategic objective to annihilate the whole civilian-population of the target area, there would have been so much more effective ways to do it.

And again, thats warfare and military-culture for you. Even some finnish defence forces soldiers sing songs during marches about invading sweden, raping their women and burning childrens and so on. Basically every military has their own songs.
Lets take this song for example:
"Neekeri juoksee rannalla,
ammun sitä singolla.
Neekeri menee paskaksi,
minusta tulee upseeri!"
///////////////////////
"Nigger is running on the beach,
I'm gona shoot it with a bazooka,
Nigger goes to pieces,
I'm going to become an officer!"
(PstK/PorPr, 2000)


No matter what kind of warfare it is, civilians are still going to suffer from it. And yes, it does take a 1,000 lb / 454 kg mark 83 to get a 100% sure kill to take down a target building when the target is inside the actual building-complex and you have no idea where in there the target is actually located.

Also, unless you are unable to adapt to the enviroment, leave and find enviroment that suits you. If you are unable to adapt to your enviroment, and refuse to leave, and you are unable to even prevent the enviroment from changing, then you are just going to cause problems for yourself and those around you.

If I go to read even more history books about ancient rome and how it became to be, can you promise me that you will study more about human pychology, modern warfare, propaganda warfare, and guerrila warfare. And ofcourse about military technology?

[Yono]

First of all let me begin with this Oberschutze, you are the one under a blanket of propaganda.

Saything the swamps didnt exist is so absurd...that it is just crazy. The land was fertie ecause we made it fertile. With years of work. Ask anyone with a degree in georgraphy and they will tell you about all the swamps and marsh lands that were here.

Second thing is, an Israeli would never regret making this country. Why? If you really want to know why then you obiously have never read a history book.

Do you really think that it is that simple just to give this land back? How about giving America back to the Indians? Ireland back to England? Seriously, you are under the propaganda blanket. All you think about is how bad we are. Thats what you guys are trained to think. It seem like math almost: Jews=Satam. Israel=Terroism. Jews+Israel=Death to all arabs.

Like really? How about instead of making us give back land, try getting Hamas and Hezbolla to calm down, sit on a table and start talking like humans. Maybe we can live together.

Possibal? Very small chance. Almost impossibal. But if you get your side to talk like humans instead of giving us outrageous demands. Think about that for abit. We are not the bad guys. You are not the bad guys. We are just two brothers having a fight.

[Oberschutze]

ok yea you guys definately made it fertile. thats exactly why my grandparents grew tons of olives, almonds, strawberries, and eggplants every year before you guys tore their farm down right?

and yea i know an israeli wouldnt regret making his country. but youre a dumbass to think that you can steal someone's land and not expect some kind of resistance. yes, even 61 years later. plus its obviously not easy to give land back, but youre ancestors put you, or future generations in that situation when they stole palestine in 1948.

by the way, i dont appreciate your use of "you people", especially considering that i have a lot of sincere respect for judaism and im not even muslim myself. that kind of remark doesnt even make an argument for yourself, let alone even relate to the problem, especially since israel was founded of the ideals of zionism, which goes many teachings of the torah.

by the way, wanting something back that you once had is not unhuman. but in the idf's case, neither is slaughtering children apparently. we are not two brothers having a fight. palestinians simply want out of the giant extermination camps that the israelis set up for them. plus their farms, houses, rivers, beaches, and trees that they had back in 1948.

[Yono]

Your a nut. Giant extermination camps? Are you serious? Do you actually think that we want to kill arab's? The last people in the world in my opinian to set up your so called extermination camps would be us. Why? We still live the nightmare of WW2 and we will never do the same thing.

Maybe your grandpa lived in an area with less swamps. In what location did he live? I know settlers were draining swamps even befor 1948.

And if I offended you by saying "you people" then sorry. But wanting somthing by trying to kill as many civies as possibal is UNHUMAN. The IDF has never targeted innocent civilians, only Hama's gunmen, officers, tunnels...etc, but NEVER civies.

It seems that what the Hamas is doing is perpously, and addimitingly argeting INNCOENT lives and if you think I am wrong then please prove me wrong.

[Ness]

I lol at the amount of money America spends on political campaigns.

This is all

[metsapeikko]

Originally Posted by Oberschutze

palestinians simply want out of the giant extermination camps that the israelis set up for them. plus their farms, houses, rivers, beaches, and trees that they had back in 1948.

If that's suppose to be an extermination camp, then IDF has created the most ineffective extermination camp in the world since instead of exterminating population and making sure they won't start breeding, they're letting them to breed and multiply much faster rate than in Israel.

[Oberschutze]

yea, that must be why they are killing so many. population control huh? im sorry let me correct myself, concentration camps, not extermination camps.

@ yono

1. yea, i really do think you want to kill arabs. for example, i had a cousin who was on his way to school once in 2000, when the 2nd intifada began. he was 8 years old. 8 YEARS OLD and he was shot by an israeli sniper. why? i have no idea. it completely blows my mind why someone would do that. and hes one of thousands who died for no reason. i hate this bullshit about how israelis are traumatized because of rocket sirens. yea so schools have fire drills, a lot more people die in fires than they do in rocket attacks, so why arent they traumatized by fire drills? ill give credibility to someone who claims hes traumatized when his family is dead and his house is gone because of an israeli attack.

2. i have relatives from ramallah, nablus, immatein, and many great uncles and aunts that lived along the beach on what is now occupied land.

3. the idf never targets cities? take a fucking look at gaza city for example. its rubble. and through blockades the israelis effectively keep gazan children malnourished and without medical supplies. and there is no such thing as an israeli civilian. every israeli is an illegal occupier to a palestinian and with israeli laws, every israeli citizen must serve in the idf, making every israeli a soldier. and until the israelis go back to wherever their parents or grandparents came from, palestinians will always see them as illegal occupiers and murderers.

[Jtb0201]

in all fairness, the people who run israel have become more and more extreme over time, as can be seen by how NATO didn't want them involved in the war in afghanistan, else they wouldn't get the palestinian support.

[Yono]

You actually truley believe that we are running concentration camps? That is truley the most F-ed up comment I have read in my ENITE life.

How do you know that the sniper was aiming at the 8 year old? What if he was aiming at an insurgent carrying a weapon? What if the 8 year old moved into is line of fire? You are so sure that it was on purpose that you cant bilieve that it may have been an accident.

Oh and about the buildings. 1. Tell Hamas troops to quit hiding like the pussies they are in buildings,schools,parks...etc. Maybe this stuff wouldnt have happend.

Oh and I want some proof of these so called "concentration camps" please. If you cant give any then you are just saying a load of BIG FAT BS.

How would you feel if a man came into a pizzaria, and blew himself up when your cchildren are eating pizza. Thats what happend in the Sabaro pizzaira AND YOU MONSTERS MADE A MUESUM IN HONOUR OF IT. You guys are pure evil. To make a meusum and memorial for the person who went and littarley blew himself up while people were enjoying a pizza? What do you say about that?

And if you think that we purpousley kill arabs you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

[metsapeikko]

Well I was about to reply to the Ober's comment, but then I read the Yono's comment and it was basically same what I was about to say.

And Oberschutze, honestly speaking I'm so fucking glad that you're not in any leadership position in any conventional military that was fighting counter-guerrila/insurgency war. You'd just get ALL the civilians killed on purpose just because it was stated on their law that they must defend their land and so on, thus making them all potential enemies/military targets.

(Also, Gaza city was inside of the AO, Hamas fighters/guerrilas/insurgents were the targets. Some of the/possibly most of the targets were hiding inside the city.)

@Jtb0201

Well, that's pretty natural progress of prolonged warfare. Enemy starts using more extreme methods, you start using more exterme methods.

[Yono]

Thank you metsapeikko.
Maybe Ober you will understand one day that the way that this world is growing and the way that you guys are cooping with whats happend in the years IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

Today is a world of politics,diplomacy, TALKING.....they way that you guys are trying to get "your" land back WONT work. Let me tell you why.
1) Our military is SO much better, that any major attack will be repelled. The only chance you guys have is small raids on towns that will eventually drain your manpower and ammo.
2) We are just as intent as a people to stay here then you are on getting us out.
3) The more you kill inoccent lives on purpose the more the world will hate you.

So really you guys have start speaking on a table like real humans, and talk without threat, just talk like two diplomats trying to fix somthing would. Not one side saying "GIVE IS 300 GUYS BACK AND WE WILL GIVE YOU ONE). No that wont work.

AND I still want some proof of this concentration camps, or that was just a comment out of pure retardness.

[Sgt So and So]

Originally Posted by D.O.A

Israeli would not be there without the USA... nuf said lol

Correction: Israel would not exist without the help of both the UK at first and then the US and its military supplies after the Israelis kicked out UK troops. It was the UK's "land" that Israel was originally carved out of- which raises another concern- what right does a European colonial power have to create a country out of the blue? But that's a wholly separate question.

On the subject of arguing about who was there first, it's a cyclical and unwinnable argument for either side. It doesn't matter if the Etruscans or Romans were in Rome first: the fact of the matter is, they didn't have a global agency regulating how government agencies should treat fellow human beings up until the 1950's, and really, the UN has only started doing a half-decent job of keeping things together in the Post-Cold War world.

Palestinians, regardless of your stance on their nationhood, are people, people who live in a country (regardless if they chose to be in that country), and people who live in a country that is denying them basic rights, in a situation eerily similar to the Native American outcry against European American settlement. The UN's job today is to make sure that Palestinians don't suffer the same fate as the Apache, Choctaw, and countless other cultures that were strangled by US expansionism after isolated pockets struck back in the only way they could fathom: violence. What has to happen soon is that violence gives way to diplomacy, or else Palestinians, like the Native Americans, will surely cease to exist, since, as you've mentioned, Yono, the Israeli military is lightyears ahead of Palestinian militants thanks to the US.

Good book on the subject: "Martyrs' Crossing" by Amy Wilentz.

That's my two cents. Take it as you like.

EDIT: Also, Hamas and other fighters aren't the saviors of the Palestinian people that they make themselves out to be. In fact, I'd say they're just as guilty of putting their own people in harm's way as the IDF.

[Yono]

Well I guess this can be locked up. All thats been said has been said and I think Ober gave up.

So I guess this one can be locked up and lost in the Valley of Lost Thread's.

[Schrem [506th PIR]]

Locked after request.